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Les berberes entre fables et verites: quesions&reponses
1/Qu'elle est l'origine des berberes?
Les populations proto-berberes se sont extirpes du socle afrasiatique(qui comprend outre le rameau berbere les rameaux copte et semitique)quelquepart entre les montagnes de l'erythree et le nord de tchad pour migrer vers l'afrique du nord.
2/Est ce les berberes sont le premier peuple connu a avoir colonise l'afrique du nord?
Non le peuple ibero-marussien qui serait relate peut etre aux basques actuels est le premier peuple connu a avoir colonise l'afrique du nord.
On peut penser qu'il s'est fodu completement par assimilation aux nouveaux venus berberes plus nombreux(ou plus forts ou plus habiles et developpes)tout en laissant les traces genetiques et linguistiques de ce metissage(voir au net racines communes entre basque et berbere)
3/Quelle a ete la race de berberes?
La dite race mediterranide caracterise par une taille et largeur d'epaules moyennes,une tete alonge,une pilosite assez developpe mais pas aussi que celle afghanoide,une peau de teint variant entre les differents nuances du blanc,une chevelure majoriatirement fonce avec presence minime de chevelure blonde,des yeux fonces avec presence minime de yeux clairs
(au contraire des idees recues le type blond est bien present dans la race mediterranide quoi minoritaire et morphologiquement different par rapport au type blond nordique et il ne faut pas expliquer sa presence par des migrations d'euopeens etc)
Cad c'est tout a fait normal et ne necessistant pas quelconque migrations externes la presence de types blonds parmie les berberes mais aussi les egyptiens et les semites.
C'est pkoi par exemple on peut trouver des types blonds en plein coeur du said en egypte ,en plein coeur des montagnes isolees du yemen ou la montagne de shammar en plein centre de najd et biensur en plein centre des montagnes isolees du sud du maroc.
Voila des photos de
1/bedouins arabes de jordanie
5/hommes iraqiens
6/Enfants bedouins syriens de Tadmor
Biensur etre blond n'est pas un accomplissement mais ces photos entren dans le cadre scientifique de ce sujet
Regardez cette feuille de l'anthropologue Carleton Coon sur la race mediterranide
http://dienekes.**********/texts/coonmed/
Our area, from Morocco to Afghanistan, is the homeland and cradle of the Mediterranean race. Mediterraneans are found also in Spain, Portugal, most of Italy, Greece and the Mediterranean islands, and in all these places, as in the Middle East, they form the major genetic element in the local populations. In a dark-skinned and finer-boned form they are also found as the major population element in Pakistan and northern India.
The Sumerians were Mediterraneans skeletally. So were the ancient Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Children of Israel, and the Arabs of the early Islamic period whose skeletons I had the privilege of measuring at Nippur. A Mediterranean is a white man of variable stature - as whites go, usually short to medium; his bones are light, but strongly marked for muscle attachments if these muscles have been well developed through use. His legs are relatively long compared to his trunk, and his hands and feet rather small. His chest is relatively flat, his neck of medium length, his head of medium size, long-oval in shape with parallel sides; his face is small and delicate, with only slight bony ridges over the eyes. The upper part of his face is large in proportion to the lower part, so that when he is old his nose looks large for his jaw. Of all human being the Mediterranean has the most human, the most highly evolved, masticatory apparatus. His teeth are small, and so are the muscles that operate his jaw. His face is narrow, and his nose consequently is often prominent when compared to the lower-bridged and flatter noses of wider or longer-jawed races in Europe and other parts of Africa and Asia. The Mediterranean man is a relatively hairy fellow. His head is covered with a heavy growth of straight, wavy, or ringleted hair, usually fine in texture; rarely does the true Mediterranean go bald. His eyebrows are full, often meeting over the nose. His beard develops throughout adult life. While it is not the heaviest beard of all mankind, it is often a close runner-up. His body hair also increases throughout life and individually varies greatly in quantity.
The Mediterranean’s hair is usually black or dark brown, while his whiskers may reveal a few strands of red or even blond. Blond hair may be seen, but it is the exception. Its presence does not require some invasion of Goths or Scyths or the miscegenation of Crusaders. One of the characteristics of the Mediterranean race is a minority tendency toward blondism. This is seen much more frequently in the eyes, since blond hair, which appears in infants, usually darkens as the hair coarsens with age.
Among Mediterraneans every shade of eye color appears. Coal black is exceptional, a dark or medium brown most common. Nearly a fourth of any sample, however, will have blue, gray or green eyes, usually mixed with brown in the iris pattern. Eyes do not darken with age; hence the greater prevalence of light eyes rather than blond hair among the adult.
Middle Eastern urban civilization may thus have produced artificially an environment comparable to the Baltic fog, from which the Nordic emerged.
Who, then, are these Mediterraneans? Nearly all the Arabs, practically all the oriental Jews, most of the inhabitants of Egypt whatever their religion, most of the Berbers, most of the Persians proper, many of the Kurds, most of the Baluchis, a large number of the Afghans and many of the Turks of Anatolia and Azerbaijan. Nearly 80% of the individuals living in the Middle East and participating in its civilization (excluding Europeans) are Mediterraneans of one variety or another; of the other twenty per cent at least half probably show an increment of Mediterranean genes. The Mediterranean race, then, is indigenous to, and the principal element in, the Middle East, and the greatest concentration of a highly evolved Mediterranean type falls among two of the most ancient Semitic-speaking peoples, notably the Arabs and the Jews. (Although it may please neither party, this is the truth.)
The Mediterraneans occupy the center of the stage; their areas of greatest concentration are precisely those where civilization is the oldest. This is to be expected, since it was they who produced it and it, in a sense, that produced them.
4/Quel est le nombre actuel des berberes?
Ethniquement le tiers de la poplation marocaine,le un ciquieme de celle algerienne,le dixieme de celle libyenne,+presence variable et faible dans le niger mali mauritanie egypte et tunisie pour un total a peu pres de 25 millions
5/Quel est le nombre de personnes ayant un ou plusieurs ancetres berberes?
C'est impossible de le savoir mais on peut penser que du fait des metissages etc on aurait pres de 80%-90% de la populationdu maghreb comme ayant un ou pluseiurs ancetres berberes loin devant ceux qui auraient un ou pluiseurs ancetres arabes et qui seraient aux alentours de 60%
Mais on sait que 40%de la population du maghreb portent le marqueur haplotype J associe souvent au semites(D'ailleurs c'est au yemen ou il est le plus present avec pres de 90%)
Et environ 50% possedent le marqueur haplotype E3b souvent donne comme marqueur berbere(D'ailleurs c'est dans les motagnes du sud du maroc qui est le plus present avec pres de 90%)
Je n'oublierais pas de rappeler que ce haplotype est herite de pere en fils et donc ne pas etre considere comme un indice decisif vu que si toute la lignee de l'individu de x-haplotype se mariera exclusivement avec des femmes etrangeres a ce groupe, cela ne peut pas etre decele.
voire ce graphe sur la repartition du hapltype J parmi les poplations de certains pays
Les populations proto-berberes se sont extirpes du socle afrasiatique(qui comprend outre le rameau berbere les rameaux copte et semitique)quelquepart entre les montagnes de l'erythree et le nord de tchad pour migrer vers l'afrique du nord.
2/Est ce les berberes sont le premier peuple connu a avoir colonise l'afrique du nord?
Non le peuple ibero-marussien qui serait relate peut etre aux basques actuels est le premier peuple connu a avoir colonise l'afrique du nord.
On peut penser qu'il s'est fodu completement par assimilation aux nouveaux venus berberes plus nombreux(ou plus forts ou plus habiles et developpes)tout en laissant les traces genetiques et linguistiques de ce metissage(voir au net racines communes entre basque et berbere)
3/Quelle a ete la race de berberes?
La dite race mediterranide caracterise par une taille et largeur d'epaules moyennes,une tete alonge,une pilosite assez developpe mais pas aussi que celle afghanoide,une peau de teint variant entre les differents nuances du blanc,une chevelure majoriatirement fonce avec presence minime de chevelure blonde,des yeux fonces avec presence minime de yeux clairs
(au contraire des idees recues le type blond est bien present dans la race mediterranide quoi minoritaire et morphologiquement different par rapport au type blond nordique et il ne faut pas expliquer sa presence par des migrations d'euopeens etc)
Cad c'est tout a fait normal et ne necessistant pas quelconque migrations externes la presence de types blonds parmie les berberes mais aussi les egyptiens et les semites.
C'est pkoi par exemple on peut trouver des types blonds en plein coeur du said en egypte ,en plein coeur des montagnes isolees du yemen ou la montagne de shammar en plein centre de najd et biensur en plein centre des montagnes isolees du sud du maroc.
Voila des photos de
1/bedouins arabes de jordanie
5/hommes iraqiens
6/Enfants bedouins syriens de Tadmor
Biensur etre blond n'est pas un accomplissement mais ces photos entren dans le cadre scientifique de ce sujet
Regardez cette feuille de l'anthropologue Carleton Coon sur la race mediterranide
http://dienekes.**********/texts/coonmed/
Our area, from Morocco to Afghanistan, is the homeland and cradle of the Mediterranean race. Mediterraneans are found also in Spain, Portugal, most of Italy, Greece and the Mediterranean islands, and in all these places, as in the Middle East, they form the major genetic element in the local populations. In a dark-skinned and finer-boned form they are also found as the major population element in Pakistan and northern India.
The Sumerians were Mediterraneans skeletally. So were the ancient Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Children of Israel, and the Arabs of the early Islamic period whose skeletons I had the privilege of measuring at Nippur. A Mediterranean is a white man of variable stature - as whites go, usually short to medium; his bones are light, but strongly marked for muscle attachments if these muscles have been well developed through use. His legs are relatively long compared to his trunk, and his hands and feet rather small. His chest is relatively flat, his neck of medium length, his head of medium size, long-oval in shape with parallel sides; his face is small and delicate, with only slight bony ridges over the eyes. The upper part of his face is large in proportion to the lower part, so that when he is old his nose looks large for his jaw. Of all human being the Mediterranean has the most human, the most highly evolved, masticatory apparatus. His teeth are small, and so are the muscles that operate his jaw. His face is narrow, and his nose consequently is often prominent when compared to the lower-bridged and flatter noses of wider or longer-jawed races in Europe and other parts of Africa and Asia. The Mediterranean man is a relatively hairy fellow. His head is covered with a heavy growth of straight, wavy, or ringleted hair, usually fine in texture; rarely does the true Mediterranean go bald. His eyebrows are full, often meeting over the nose. His beard develops throughout adult life. While it is not the heaviest beard of all mankind, it is often a close runner-up. His body hair also increases throughout life and individually varies greatly in quantity.
The Mediterranean’s hair is usually black or dark brown, while his whiskers may reveal a few strands of red or even blond. Blond hair may be seen, but it is the exception. Its presence does not require some invasion of Goths or Scyths or the miscegenation of Crusaders. One of the characteristics of the Mediterranean race is a minority tendency toward blondism. This is seen much more frequently in the eyes, since blond hair, which appears in infants, usually darkens as the hair coarsens with age.
Among Mediterraneans every shade of eye color appears. Coal black is exceptional, a dark or medium brown most common. Nearly a fourth of any sample, however, will have blue, gray or green eyes, usually mixed with brown in the iris pattern. Eyes do not darken with age; hence the greater prevalence of light eyes rather than blond hair among the adult.
Middle Eastern urban civilization may thus have produced artificially an environment comparable to the Baltic fog, from which the Nordic emerged.
Who, then, are these Mediterraneans? Nearly all the Arabs, practically all the oriental Jews, most of the inhabitants of Egypt whatever their religion, most of the Berbers, most of the Persians proper, many of the Kurds, most of the Baluchis, a large number of the Afghans and many of the Turks of Anatolia and Azerbaijan. Nearly 80% of the individuals living in the Middle East and participating in its civilization (excluding Europeans) are Mediterraneans of one variety or another; of the other twenty per cent at least half probably show an increment of Mediterranean genes. The Mediterranean race, then, is indigenous to, and the principal element in, the Middle East, and the greatest concentration of a highly evolved Mediterranean type falls among two of the most ancient Semitic-speaking peoples, notably the Arabs and the Jews. (Although it may please neither party, this is the truth.)
The Mediterraneans occupy the center of the stage; their areas of greatest concentration are precisely those where civilization is the oldest. This is to be expected, since it was they who produced it and it, in a sense, that produced them.
4/Quel est le nombre actuel des berberes?
Ethniquement le tiers de la poplation marocaine,le un ciquieme de celle algerienne,le dixieme de celle libyenne,+presence variable et faible dans le niger mali mauritanie egypte et tunisie pour un total a peu pres de 25 millions
5/Quel est le nombre de personnes ayant un ou plusieurs ancetres berberes?
C'est impossible de le savoir mais on peut penser que du fait des metissages etc on aurait pres de 80%-90% de la populationdu maghreb comme ayant un ou pluseiurs ancetres berberes loin devant ceux qui auraient un ou pluiseurs ancetres arabes et qui seraient aux alentours de 60%
Mais on sait que 40%de la population du maghreb portent le marqueur haplotype J associe souvent au semites(D'ailleurs c'est au yemen ou il est le plus present avec pres de 90%)
Et environ 50% possedent le marqueur haplotype E3b souvent donne comme marqueur berbere(D'ailleurs c'est dans les motagnes du sud du maroc qui est le plus present avec pres de 90%)
Je n'oublierais pas de rappeler que ce haplotype est herite de pere en fils et donc ne pas etre considere comme un indice decisif vu que si toute la lignee de l'individu de x-haplotype se mariera exclusivement avec des femmes etrangeres a ce groupe, cela ne peut pas etre decele.
voire ce graphe sur la repartition du hapltype J parmi les poplations de certains pays
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