Relation entre semites et indo-europeens: sujet sous forme de question

[absent]

de là a affirmer qu'il y a un lien entre le semitique et les langues indo-européennes, je sais pas, faut des etudes très poussés en linguistique, les liens de wiki ne confirment rien...
__________________

Merci merci Voilà!

[Zakia]

Humanbyrace, merci pour la précision.

Le sujet m'intéresse mais apparemment il faudrait quelques notions qui me font défaut. D'un point de vue génétique, j'en suis restée à Mendel et ses petits pois ou peu s'en faut quelques ouvrages à recommander?

Pour la linguistique je vais aller enquiquiner Zyriab

[absent]

Par contre l'ecrasante majorite des semites comme les caucasiens appartiennent a la meme race =la race mediterranide.

Bonjour la race n'existe pas entre humain (on parle de race humaine) et par extension les liens entre langue et race encore moins.

Pour les familles de langues, ce sont des hypothèses linguistiques et non des découvertes scientifiques (on a jamais découvert une langue indo-européenne d'où dériveraient certaines langues actuelles).

Enfin pour la liste que tu as donné: le fait qu'il y ai des mots commun à plusieurs langues ne veut pas dire que ces langues ont une origine commune, mais seulement qu'il y a eu un phénomène très étudié en linguistique comparée que l'on appelle l'emprunt.
Ex. Beaucoup de jeunes locuteurs francophones utilisent des termes venant de l'arabe dialectal (comme "wash"). Si ce terme faisait son entrée dans le dictionnaire, dans dix générations on ne pensera plus à son origine. Imagines-tu à ce moment-là quelqu'un qui se saissirait de la présence de "wesh" dans le lexique de la langue française pour affirmer que le français est parent ou dérivant de l'algérien dialectal ?

Cordialement

[humanbyrace]

mrs Tolkien et Ulysse
Les races humaines existent bien mais pour etre plus correct il serait plus juste de parler d'espece humaine unique divisee en sous-especes regroupes en races et ces derniers divises en subraces.


http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/...ofHumanity.htm
http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/in.../t-108604.html


Dans les liens donnes aucun n'est de wikipedia alors que la carte est oeuvre du projet genome humain.

Les racines communes entre langues semitiques et langues indo-europeenes sont attestes dans des textes millenaires en langues semites(akkadien,babylonien etc...)comme en langues indo-europeenes(sanskrit,alan etc....)et ce ne sont pas des emprunts comme "alcohol,amiral etc...."

Et des travaux serieux ont ete faites sur la famille nostratique depuis le 19 eme siecle jusqu'a nos jours.

mlle Zakia
je te conseille "races genes et langues" de Luiggi Cavalli Sforza
et "races of europe" de Carleton Coon

[absent]

les races n'existent pas Human, faut sortir et aller parler à un vrai ethnologue !!!

[humanbyrace]

Je crois que vous realisez bien que ce n'est pas par cette votre breve phrase qu'on peut vous donner raison.

Voila ce qu'ecrivent l'ethnologue Richard Mcculoch a propos de la race humaine

The humand race is actually a species, and there are 5 sub-species being Caucasoid, Congoid, Capoid, Australoid, and Mongoloid.
Each subspecies has a number of 'races':


by Richard McCulloch
The human species is blessed with great variety and diversity. Its rich diversity resulted from its global distribution, which caused the different populations of humanity to be geographically separated and thus reproductively isolated. Reproductive isolation enabled divergence -- the process of divergent evolution -- to occur, causing the isolated populations to evolve in different directions, developing their own distinct ensembles of genetic traits and characteristics.
Divergent evolution is the process by which new life forms are created by the division and separation of life into different branches. Human evolution has seen its share of divergent branching. The generic name commonly used to refer to the genetically different populations, branches or divisions of humanity -- that share both a common biological ancestry and an ensemble of unique, genetically transmitted traits and characteristics which distinguish them from other populations -- is "race." But in the human species, as in any species enjoying a great degree of variety, the constant branching and dividing that characterizes the process of divergent evolution has created many different levels of branches and divisions, each of which possesses genetic traits which distinguish it from other branches or divisions at the same level. For purposes of taxonomic accuracy each of these levels should have its own specific name and definition. The first or highest level is called the species, and it is simply and objectively defined as including all those populations which are capable of interbreeding with each other and producing fully fertile offspring, and which do in fact interbreed under conditions of close and extensive contact. The term race is commonly used to refer to a branch or division of the species possessing genetic traits which distinguish it from other branches or divisions of the same level. Adding to this definition, it will here also be defined as including only those persons who are capable of reproduction with each other without the loss or significant diminishment or alteration of the racially-distinctive genetic traits of either parent stock. The genetically transmitted traits which distinguish a race from other divisions at the same level (i.e., other races) should not be diminished or lost by reproduction within the race. If racially-distinctive traits are lost or diminished by within-group reproduction then the population group is at a level of division too broad and inclusive to be accurately defined as a race. If it is too narrow to be defined as a species, as it does not include all those populations capable of interbreeding, then it is at a level between race and species, which will here be referred to as a subspecies.
The great diversity existing in the human species today is the product of over 100,000 years of divergent evolution. Many of the specific details of that evolution are still not perfectly known or understood, but the fossil record indicates that the genus Homo developed in Africa, and by 1.8 million years ago (the age of fossil remains found on the island of Java in Indonesia) had spread across much of Eurasia where it developed into a variety of regional archaic populations. The genetic evidence from mitochondrial DNA indicates that the modern human species also originated in sub-Saharan Africa, where it began diverging into different populations by 180,000 years ago. By 100,000 years ago some of these populations had migrated out of sub-Saharan Africa and dispersed across Eurasia and North Africa, replacing the regional archaic populations. (The manner of that replacement, and whether or not -- and to what extent -- the modern humans may have interbred with the archaic populations, are subjects of debate.) By 40,000 years ago the divergent evolutionary branching or dividing of the human species had produced five main lines or subspecies which are still extant -- the Congoid and Capoid of sub-Saharan Africa, the Australoid of India, Southeast Asia, Indonesia, New Guinea and Australia, the Mongoloid of Northeast Asia (expanding after 20,000 B.C. into the Americas and replacing the Australoids in Southeast Asia and Indonesia after 4,000 B.C.) and the Caucasoid of Europe, North Africa and West Asia (partly replacing the Australoids in India after 8,000 B.C., the Mongoloids in the Americas after A.D. 1492, and the Australoids in Australia after A.D. 1788). These subspecies branched or divided in turn into separate races, and these races branched in their turn into subraces, as part of the continuing process of divergent evolution.
The different races are often popularly defined and named (often very inaccurately) by skin color, but as this system is based on only one genetic difference, when thousands are involved, it tends to distort the reality of race and racial differences. In the system of racial classification outlined below the names assigned to the various subspecies and races are, with a few exceptions, based on geographical regions that are, or presumably were, at or near the center of their area of evolutionary development and origin.
Outline of Human Racial Classification:

I. Capoid or Khoisanid Subspecies of southern Africa

A. Khoid (Hottentot) race

B. Sanid (Bushmen) race


II. Congoid Subspecies of sub-Saharan Africa

A. Central African race 1. Palaecongoid subrace (the Congo river basin: Ivory Coast, Ghana, Nigeria, Cameroon, Congo, Angola) 2. Sudanid subrace (western Africa: Niger, Mali, Senegal, Guinea) 3. Nilotid subrace (southern Sudan; the ancient Nubians were of this subrace) 4. Kafrid or Bantid subrace (east and south Africa: Kenya, Tanzania, Mozambique, Natal)

B. Bambutid race (African Pygmies) C. Aethiopid race (Ethiopia, Somalia; hybridized with Caucasoids)


III. Caucasoid or Europid Subspecies

A. Mediterranid race 1. West Mediterranean or Iberid subrace (Spain, Portugal, Corsica, Sardinia, and coastal areas of Morocco and Tunisia; the Atlanto-Mediterranean peoples who expanded over much of the Atlantic coastal regions of Europe during the Mesolithic period were a branch of this subrace) 2. East Mediterranean or Pontid subrace (Black Sea coast of Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria; Aegean coasts of Greece and Turkey) 3. Dinaricized Mediterraneans (Residual mixed types resulting from the blending of Mediterranids with Dinarics, Alpines or Armenids; not a unified type, has much regional variation; predominant element [over 60%] in Sicily and southern Italy, principal element in Turkey [35%], important element in western Syria, Lebanon and central Italy, common in northern Italy. The ancient Cappadocian Mediterranean subrace of Anatolia was dinaricized during the Bronze Age [second millennium B.C.] and is a major contributor to this type in modern Turkey.) 4. South Mediterranean or Saharid subrace (predominant in Algeria and Libya, important in Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt) 5. Orientalid or Arabid subrace (predominant in Arabia, major element from Egypt to Syria, primary in northern Sudan, important in Iraq, predominant element among the Oriental Jews)

B. Dinaric race (predominant in western Balkans [Dinaric Mountains] and northern Italy, important in the Czech Republic, eastern and southern Switzerland, western Austria and eastern Ukraine)

C. Alpine race (predominant element in Luxembourg, primary in Bavaria and Bohemia, important in France, Hungary, eastern and southern Switzerland)

D. Ladogan race (named after Lake Ladoga; indigenous to Russia; includes Lappish subrace of arctic Europe)

E. Nordish or Northern European race(various subraces in the British Isles, Scandinavia, the Netherlands and Belgium; predominant element in Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Finland and the Baltic States; majority in Austria and Russia; minority in France, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary; outlined in detail in the Nordish Race)

[humanbyrace]

suite

Suite et fin

F. Armenid race (predominant element in Armenia, common in Syria, Lebanon and northern Iraq, primary element among the Ashkenazic Jews)
I. Indic or Nordindid race (Pakistan and northern India)

J. Dravidic race (India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka [Ceylon]; ancient stabilized Indic-Veddoid [Australoid] blend)


IV. Australoid Subspecies

A. Veddoid race (remnant Australoid population in central and southern India)

B. Negritos (remnants in Malaysia and the Philippines)

C. Melanesian race (New Guinea, Papua, Solomon Islands)

D. Australian-Tasmanian race (Australian Aborigines)


V. Mongoloid Subspecies

A. Northeast Asian race (various subraces in China, Manchuria, Korea and Japan)

B. Southeast Asian race (various subraces in Indochina, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines, some partly hybridized with Australoids)

C. Micronesian-Polynesian race (hybridized with Australoids)

D. Ainuid race (remnants of aboriginal population in northern Japan)

E. Tungid race (Mongolia and Siberia, Eskimos)

F. Amerindian race (American Indians; various subraces)

Dominant or predominant = over 60% majority Majority or major = 50-60% majority Principal or primary = 25-49% plurality; less than a majority, but most numerous racial type Important = 25-49% minority; not most numerous racial type Common = 5-25% minority Minor = less than 5% minority


The diverse races of the human species outlined above all have their own geographical territory that has historically been exclusively their own, which may be referred to as their racial homeland, and is closely identified with the race that inhabits it. Between most of these exclusive homelands are clinal zones -- areas of contact between different racial territories. These racial borderlands are frequently areas of interracial contact and intermixture where adjacent races merge into one another, creating racially mixed or hybridized populations of intermediate type called racial clines. The Dravidic race of India and Sri Lanka, created by the intermixture of the local Caucasoid (Indic or Nordindid) and Australoid (Veddoid) populations, and the Aethiopid race of Ethiopia and Somalia, created by the intermixture of the local Caucasoid (Mediterranid) and Congoid races, are two very ancient racial clines -- perhaps 10,000 years old -- which have stabilized into distinct races of intermediate type. Racial clines of more recent formation, where the racial blends are not yet stabilized, include the populations of many Latin American and Caribbean countries, which were created over the last 500 years by the intermixture of various Caucasoid (mostly Mediterranid), Congoid and Amerindian elements. The population of Mexico, for example, is about 5% Caucasoid, 30% Amerindian and 65% Mestizo, the Spanish term for persons of mixed Amerindian-Caucasoid ancestry. (The same term is used in the Philippines for persons of mixed Filipino-Caucasoid ancestry.) The multiracialization of the populations of North America and, more recently, Europe, has begun to transform them into racial clines.

[DrHouse]

Je suis plutot partisan qu'au lieu d'utiliser le terme de race on utilise le terme de type (physique)

[humanbyrace]

Autres similarites

Grec/Arabe
Emena/Minni(de moi)
Alla/Illa(sauf)
Odhi/Hedhe(ceci)


Arabe/Anglais
Ma3na/Mean(signification)
Jorm/Crime(crime)
3eyn/Eye(oeil)
Hu/His(son)
Ha/Her(sa)
Dhak/That(cela)
Hedhi/This(ceci)
Fatasha/Fetch(chercher)
Qit/Cat(chat)

Arabe/Francais
Nahnu/Nous
Masha/Marche
Turab/Terre
Sama/Ciel



Les linguistes procedent par chercher les similarites grammaticales et les similarites lexicales basiques(vocabulaire relatif au corps humain,agriculture,nomadisme...)pour etre en concordance avec le milieu de ces peuples tres anciens

[absent]

Arabe/Anglais
Ma3na/Mean(signification)
Jorm/Crime(crime)
3eyn/Eye(oeil)
Hu/His(son)
Ha/Her(sa)
Dhak/That(cela)
Hedhi/This(ceci)
Fatasha/Fetch(chercher)
Qit/Cat(chat)

Arabe/Francais
Nahnu/Nous
Masha/Marche
Turab/Terre
Sama/Ciel



Les linguistes procedent par chercher les similarites grammaticales et les similarites lexicales basiques(vocabulaire relatif au corps humain,agriculture,nomadisme...)pour etre en concordance avec le milieu de ces peuples tres anciens

Mazelna, mais c'est quoi cette histoire encore ?!!!!
Du grand n'importe quoi intégral....

[humanbyrace]

mr Zyriab
Ce sont des linguistes qui ont etabli cette super famille
Ça sera plus constructif si tu nous donne tes contre-hypotheses



Je profite pour dire Mabrouk a mon equipe prefere arabe pour le titre de champion d'afrique et esperons un Ahly-ManUtd en finale de coupe de monde

[absent]

S'il te plait donne moi le nom de ces linguistiques, mais sans citation/quote wikipédia.
C'est du n'importe quoi! complet.
Je le dis depuis le début, faut pas mélanger la phonétique, la phonologie, la sémantique et la linguistique surtout pour faire de l'histoire phonétique. Meme si tout cela fait partie de la meme famille, faut pas tout mélanger!

[humanbyrace]

Tu peux lire les livres de Carleton Coon et Segey Sarostin
Explique nous stp mr Zyriab pkoi tu contestes les travaux de ces lingusites de renomme internationale quand meme?
Est ce que tu contestes aussi par exemple la parente entre Persan et Anglais ou celle entre le Malgache et le Malais?
Sais tu qu'il ya des dictionnaires en nostratic et meme des livres et poemes en langue reconstruite proto-nostratique?

[absent]

Mais bien entendu, et après quoi, la langue des plutoniens ressemble à celle des proto-bactéries?!

[humanbyrace]

Mais bien entendu, et après quoi, la langue des plutoniens ressemble à celle des proto-bactéries?!

Mr Zyriab je te demande un minimum de serieux et d'ouverture d'esprit stp.
Et surtout formuler des reponses serieuses et en rapport avec le sujet et pas des futilites qui ne servent strictement a rien sauf faire augmenter le nombre de tes messages
STP